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Thread: The Madonna Thread: Like a Rebel

  1. #1461
    Certified Hildi-stan kupo's Avatar
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    Why can't we expect more from her? That seems sort of condescending.

    I've only listened to the stuff she released in the lead up, so I won't comment on the overall album, but Dark Ballet is straight up embarrassing.

  2. #1462
    Noli Me Tangere lazarus's Avatar
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    Well, it's reality. How many music artists are able to put out vital work this far into their careers? Dylan had a masterpiece with Love & Theft when he was 59 but he's in rarified air and doesn't have much marketplace considerations or obligations; when you're doing pop music, there's more of a concession to the audience than someone who's in more of a niche category, let alone someone making jazz, for example. I'm a huge Prince fan and he was still putting out good albums before he died, but as far as anything vital or relevant, you'd have to go back to 2006's 3121, and he was really keeping his flame lit by his consistently great live performances. I personally wasn't expecting another truly great album from him.

  3. #1463
    i can't help you with that benutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus View Post
    Well, it's reality. How many music artists are able to put out vital work this far into their careers? Dylan had a masterpiece with Love & Theft when he was 59 but he's in rarified air and doesn't have much marketplace considerations or obligations; when you're doing pop music, there's more of a concession to the audience than someone who's in more of a niche category, let alone someone making jazz, for example. I'm a huge Prince fan and he was still putting out good albums before he died, but as far as anything vital or relevant, you'd have to go back to 2006's 3121, and he was really keeping his flame lit by his consistently great live performances. I personally wasn't expecting another truly great album from him.
    I mostly agree with this sentiment--that artists like Madonna who are in the tail end of their 4th decade putting out music aren't really expected to put out masterpieces. Do most of think it's possible? Certainly. But I think most of us are also far from expecting it to ever happen again--at best we're hopeful it might. I mean, especially after the woman has already given us so many pop masterpieces (LAP, Erotica, RoL, Confessions) in three different decades btw.

    But further to it, I think it's even more difficult for Madonna specifically who is still very much judged within the "peer group" (lol, Madonna doesn't have peers) of younger female pop stars that are in their first, maybe second decades of putting out music. People still pay attention to how Madonna sells, how she charts, how she flops and what her lyrics, videos and live performances have to say in the same way that they pay attention to Taylor, Rihanna, Gaga, Ariana, Katy, etc. To use, laz's example, is Bob Dylan's recent work (or Prince's for that matter) ever judged on the same playing field as younger, "more relevant" artists? Idkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

    So in that sense, that her work remains under so much scrutiny, it makes it even harder for her to achieve another masterpiece and as such we realize that we must lower our expectations of her work ever being talked about as "masterpiece"-level again.

  4. #1464
    Senior Member Mius Jo Avery's Avatar
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    When an album reaches masterpiece level, it means the album has great cultural impact/ the artist is at their peak in relevance

    Think Beyonce's Lemonade, Taylor Swift's 1989, Lady Gaga's Fame Monster etc

    Madonna is sadly not at her peak commercially and culturally. Even if she releases the albums above, the press and public wont give enough attention (and that's THEIR LOSS) AKA allow her to have another masterpiece

  5. #1465
    i can't help you with that benutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mius Jo Avery View Post
    When an album reaches masterpiece level, it means the album has great cultural impact/ the artist is at their peak in relevance

    Think Beyonce's Lemonade, Taylor Swift's 1989, Lady Gaga's Fame Monster etc

    Madonna is sadly not at her peak commercially and culturally. Even if she releases the albums above, the press and public wont give enough attention (and that's THEIR LOSS) AKA allow her to have another masterpiece

  6. #1466
    Senior Member Mius Jo Avery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benutty View Post
    As someone who's not a Gaga fan, she was most relevant and impactful during Fame / Fame Monster to me (Bad Romance) The number says so too

    I can lie and say I prefer Born This Way but truthfully I didnt hear Gaga's discography very closely. (Edge of Glory is my favourite song from her though)

    Also just read this on Popjustice forum regarding Madonna and wanna share it here with you guys:
    I have the utmost respect for artists like Bruce Springsteen, Mick Jagger, Prince, etc. They earned their legendary statuses and their legacies deserve the praise they get.



    NOW - when was the last time any of them had a hit single? I know Prince is dead, but he died more than twenty years after his last significant hit.



    The point is that hits don't matter in careers as long as theirs. No one seems to mind that Bruce or Bowie weren't getting played on the radio after a certain point, because the general public's reverence for them became preserved in amber as though they never left their commercial peaks. No matter if their albums increasingly sold solely to the converted and nobody else. No one talks about their relevance to contemporary culture or "the kids today" because it's almost like such discussions are beneath these guys.



    But not so with Madonna. She's going to debut at #1 almost forty years into her career, at a point when many of her former peers A) can't even get a label to release any new work, or B) can't even chart when they DO release new work. And I can already see articles about "Madonna's worst first week EVER, hang it up grandma."

  7. #1467
    i can't help you with that benutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mius Jo Avery View Post

    Also just read this on Popjustice forum regarding Madonna and wanna share it here with you guys:
    exactly. madonna is still consistently put on the same level as "contemporary"/"younger" artists, giving herself a new set of peers every decade. and she still performs on par with them, but it judged way more harshly because of it.

  8. #1468
    The People's Princess veritas's Avatar
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    Just dropping into say I stan Madame X so hard.

  9. #1469
    Senior Member Sliced Peach's Avatar
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    That she makes albums, tours and create publicity this big, almost 40 (!) years into her career says it all how legendary she is. One of a kind. A legend if there ever were one


    Oliver, what's good??
    Xoxo Peach

  10. #1470
    Senior Member Luc's Avatar
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    Personally I'm never expecting a hit song from her again. Obviously it won't happen.

    But I don't think it's unfair to hope for good, or even great, music at least, considering her past output. At their worst her past three albums were so lazy or dumb that I have to wonder how the same woman who wrote great music all through the 80s, 90s and early 00s was able to put that out.

    But a song like Medellín or even Crave (yeah, I like it now, lol), for instance, could 100% have been a hit for other artists.

  11. #1471
    OKJAke Gyllenhaal erikdean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luc View Post
    Personally I'm never expecting a hit song from her again. Obviously it won't happen.

    But I don't think it's unfair to hope for good, or even great, music at least, considering her past output. At their worst her past three albums were so lazy or dumb that I have to wonder how the same woman who wrote great music all through the 80s, 90s and early 00s was able to put that out.

    But a song like Medellín or even Crave (yeah, I like it now, lol), for instance, could 100% have been a hit for other artists.
    This is a fact. Also, Faz Gostoso would be a huge hit if it was like Camila Cabello or whatever.



  12. #1472
    i can't help you with that benutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikdean View Post
    This is a fact. Also, Faz Gostoso would be a huge hit if it was like Camila Cabello or whatever.
    lol paging @Hardys

  13. #1473
    Noli Me Tangere lazarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mius Jo Avery View Post
    Also just read this on Popjustice forum regarding Madonna and wanna share it here with you guys:
    Well again, there's a difference in terms of pop and rock and the audience you're chasing. Some of the artists mentioned are making music for themselves to an extent when they get to this age, and as I said earlier, there are no marketplace considerations when they write and record. Now I'm not calling Madonna a bandwagoner or anything; for a long time she was great at anticipating emerging trends in the underground/club scenes and explored them from her own perspective. And I don't think that she spent time in Lisbon soaking up local music just so she could repurpose it for her audience. But featuring artists, attempting to write catchy singles that might get radio play. etc. are things that someone like David Bowie simply didn't give a shit about in the last stage of his career.

    Also, for what it's worth, Dylan's 2006 and 2009 albums, 40+ years into his career, both debuted at #1 in the U.S. No hit singles of course, just enough cultural relevance among critics and music nerds to make his new releases vital again after his late=90s resurgence.

    And if you look at Springsteen's discography, he's almost always able to get #1 debuts with his new albums (6 out of his last 7 going back to 2002) and he's well over 45+ years into his career.

  14. #1474
    clausura Hardys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benutty View Post
    lol paging @Hardys
    LMAO not with that horrid production.

  15. #1475
    This is it. haqyunus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kupo View Post
    Why can't we expect more from her? That seems sort of condescending.

    I've only listened to the stuff she released in the lead up, so I won't comment on the overall album, but Dark Ballet is straight up embarrassing.
    Yikes. It seems you will be more harsh even than me. I find DB one of the better ones lol.


  16. #1476
    The French Dale Dickey
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    Quote Originally Posted by haqyunus View Post
    Yikes. It seems you will be more harsh even than me. I find DB one of the better ones lol.
    I like the piano part in Dark Ballet!

  17. #1477
    OKJAke Gyllenhaal erikdean's Avatar
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    All of Dark Ballet is fantastic. Fuck all y'all.



  18. #1478
    Moderator Aurelius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikdean View Post
    All of Dark Ballet is fantastic. Fuck all y'all.
    I agree! This needed more Dark Ballet, less Crave.

    All in all, this isn't that bad of an album. It's not really great either, but there are some tracks that I like and that are at least different from most pop drivel that is out there. The best are obviously (if you know me) God Control and I Don't Search I Find (which is basically a weaker Vogue redux without that track's iconic lyrics, but it's still good; also lacks a comma), but the aforementioned Dark Ballet, Killers Who Are Partying, Extreme Occident, and Faz Gostoso are solid and not extremely run-of-the-mill tracks. The weakest part is definitely in the middle, or what I would call the C-section: Crave, Crazy, and Come Alive. Those in particular could have been sung by any of the bland pop vocalists that infest the charts these days (what's the musical equivalent of a 'starlet'? Because that).

    But on the whole, a step back in the right direction.



    I will marshall all the forces of darkness to hound you to an assisted suicide! - Peter Capaldi, In The Loop

  19. #1479
    i can't help you with that benutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
    The weakest part is definitely in the middle, or what I would call the C-section: Crave, Crazy, and Come Alive.

  20. #1480
    Still Alive Moviefreak's Avatar
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    Crave, Crazy, and Come Alive are the strongest run of the album, Dark Ballet is great, and Killers Who Are Partying and especially Extreme Occident are almost unlistenable. Easily the worst two songs on the album.

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