Interview: Jon M. Chu on the Challenges of Singing Live on Set, What to Defy and to Keep, and How ‘Wicked’ is an Expression of the World at This Moment in Time

Everything’s been leading to this moment for Jon M. Chu. The director of Wicked first made a name for himself with music-based films like Step Up 2: The Streets, Step Up 3D, and the concert documentaries Justin Bieber: Never Say Never and Justin Bieber’s Believe. Then in 2018 he had his biggest hit yet with the acclaimed adaptation Crazy Rich Asians, followed by the triumphant Lin-Manuel Miranda musical In the Heights. With his accomplished filmography, he’s shown that he’s more than capable of adapting beloved works for the screen and bringing a kinetic energy to musical sequences. When he was announced to be helming the long-awaited big screen version of the blockbuster stage musical Wicked, it felt like a scarecrow-style no-brainer.

Now that the film has been released, it’s clear that Chu’s vision is resonating with audiences. It’s received rapturous reviews, serious awards buzz (indeed, it picked up three major wins from the National Board of Review just after we spoke, including Best Film and Best Director), and after just two weeks in theaters it’s already the highest-grossing stage musical adaptation of all time at the domestic box office. In every sense of the word, it’s popular. On the clicking heels of Wicked’s unprecedented success, Chu met with us to discuss his love of the stage show, its political relevance, and what’s to come with Wicked Part II next year.

Cody Dericks: All right, Jon, how are you doing today? Thanks for speaking with me.

Jon M. Chu: I’m good. Great to speak with you, as well.

CD: Of course. Thank you so much for making time to talk with me today. I just wanted to start by saying “congratulotions.” Wicked is a hit in every sense of the word, and I’m sure you couldn’t be happier. I can’t promise that’s the last of my Wicked puns today.

JC: That’s okay, I’ve lived with it for many years now!

CD: Fantastic. And I want to start by saying thank you and also, I’m sorry – thank you for making an incredible film version of Wicked that’s worthy of two decades of anticipation. And I am so sorry for the level of theater-nerdery I’m about to subject you to.

JC: Great. I love it. I love it.

CD: I’d love to start by talking about your history with Wicked as a stage show. Have you seen it multiple times on stage?

JC: Yeah, I’ve seen it many times. The first time I saw it was before it even went to Broadway, when it was in San Francisco at the Curran Theater, I think it was 2002. But I came back and watched it. And I didn’t have any context other than it’s Stephen Schwartz’s new show. And so I feel like I was patient zero. I had a very pure experience for the first time watching it. And I go back to that experience a lot in the making of this movie. And I’ve probably seen it since then, other than that showing, I’ve probably seen it five, six times until I got the movie. And then since I got the movie, I’ve probably watched it three or four times, maybe?

CD: So you like it, you’re a fan.

JC: I’m a fan. I was wondering, “Why aren’t they making this movie yet?” For 20 years I waited.

CD: You and me both.

JC: And I kept calling them. I was like, “You guys have these dates, release dates, and no one’s making it. I know how to make this movie. Just call me, if you want to make it.” And I never got the call back until the pandemic.

CD: So you’ve had ideas about what you want to do with a film version for a while?

JC: I’ve thought about it for a long time. Yeah. I love the show, so it wasn’t like, “Hey, we need to change everything.” And I think that’s the main thing when I came in, it was like, “Guys, what are you doing all over the place? Do the show. Let’s do the show, but let’s find the things that the show needs, and the cinematic tools, and let’s blossom it from there up. You don’t need to start from scratch. What are you guys talking about?” So that was nice to know that they were all into that.

CD: So did you feel any pressure when you were making this film? Because obviously it’s been highly anticipated for, like you said, two decades now.

JC: Yeah, there’s a lot of pressure. And not just for Wicked, but for Wizard of Oz. If you’re a filmmaker going into Oz, you better know what you’re doing. But I like pressure. I like doing the work. It’s fascinating to do the research on the L. Frank Baum books, on the Denslow drawings, on what’s the difference between the ’39 movie, and the book itself, who was L. Frank Baum, he’s a very complicated character.

And into Wicked, and what was different in the book, in the stage show, and the history of the stage show?

I got to sit through with Stephen [Schwartz] and Winnie [Holzman], when I first joined, and we went through every line of the script, and of the lyrics, and of the original show, and some scripts that were made in between, and talked about every single line and where it came from. Or alternate scenes that existed beforehand. Or why this was cut, or that was cut, or why this song was edited. And I got, for several months, several hours a day, five days a week, I got the download on the architecture of Wicked and the history of Wicked. And that was a really helpful map. Not just for us to build trust, because I didn’t know them that well, but for me to understand their original intention, and their journey through that intention of what it ended up becoming, and what they hoped in a movie. So, to me, that was a really helpful map.

CD: Did you have any conversations or draw any inspiration from any other members of the creative or original cast, perhaps? I saw Joe Mantello, the original stage director, was thanked in a special thanks at the end of the film.

JC: You know, I’d actually never talked to Joe before. I respect the work, of course, and not just Wicked, but all the work that he’s done. But I did not actually talk to him. And it was mostly through Marc [Platt], Stephen, and Winnie. I had chatted with Kristin [Chenoweth] and Idina [Menzel], but never about the show itself and what to do in the movie. I wanted to keep myself a little clean, just so I didn’t feel beholden to anything. 

I knew that Marc Platt, and Stephen, and Winnie knew what to defend, and hold dear, and be precious with. And I knew for myself being a fan, what I thought was a Bible that you shouldn’t touch. That doesn’t mean you can’t reinterpret, but I knew the things that we shouldn’t touch. And I knew the things that were gray areas, “You could touch that, but should you and what does it become?” So anyway, yes, but there wasn’t anybody, other than that core three, that I talked to.

CD: Well, the film definitely feels like its own creation, while still being loyal, but not subservient, to the original stage show. Now, one personified bridge between the stage show and the movie is, like you said, Kristin and Idina. They have this amazing cameo. Can you tell me what it was like having them on set?

JC: It was amazing. It was like having Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen there. It was frickin’ amazing. It was in the dead of night. We had to sneak them into London. It was raining that night. We had them for one night. And not just Marc, and Stephen, and Winnie were all there with those two ladies, amazing ladies, but David Stone was there. So there was an original crew of the stage show that was there. And it was really healing, I think, for all of us to be together. And they got to walk around Emerald City and see the reality of what they created from the ground up. And then our two ladies, Cynthia and Ari got to be there. And it just felt really warm and beautiful. It was really nice.

CD: So which of them is Michael Jordan and which one is Scottie Pippen?

JC: I maybe shouldn’t have said Scottie Pippen. Michael Jordan and Kobe.

CD: There you go. I can pretend I know what you’re talking about.

JC: But now I’m going to get in trouble. I’m going to get in trouble.

CD: I wouldn’t say basketball is really my…that’s basketball, right?

JC: Yes.

CD: All right, so, moving on to the actual production of the film itself. At what point in the audition processes did you know that you wanted to cast Cynthia and Ariana?

JC: I knew…I don’t know, I forget what order I saw them in. Ari was a little bit earlier, but they sort of converged by the end. And Cynthia wasn’t until later because I didn’t want to see her unless she really had a shot at this, because I didn’t want to waste her time. And no one had taken Elphaba out of my hands. I usually wait for someone to just own it. And we saw so many great people, so many talented people. But when Cynthia came in, and she came in her jeans and t-shirt, she absolutely transformed into a little girl. And I was like, “That is amazing.” And to see her go from, “Did that really just happen?,” all the way to the end of “Wizard and I,” in the room, it pierces your lungs. I said to her, “There’s something physical that actually happens to you.” And I knew that, we knew that right away, that was a lock.

And for Ari, to convince me that she could…leading a movie isn’t just, “Oh, how good are you in a room?”

It’s a sustained performance you need to have. You need to carry a movie. We need to be interested in you for two hours. And that takes discipline. And I wasn’t sure where she was in her life, could she do this? And every time she came in, she proved me wrong. Every time she came, she was more committed. To a point where I was like, she is Galinda, like real life Galinda. I don’t know how else to explain it. I would tell my family, I’m like, “I don’t know how to explain it.” Yes, she’s funny. Yes, her voice is great, but there’s a deeper understanding, what it means to be the most popular girl in the world and going through your own identity crisis about who you are during that time and finding yourself. And it’s like, that’s the secret sauce to Glinda that this movie needs. And so, they sorta came separate.

CD: Yeah, it does feel like they each cracked into something new with the character. And these characters have been around…

JC: Yeah.

CD: …for not just the past 20 years, but like you said, for 100 years-plus.

JC: And when they cracked it, that was the interest…because I got curious. I was like, “I want to understand that movie.” I know what I wanted to do, but that is interesting and how does that sit into this?

To me, it felt like every time we were shooting it was like a discovery. I was like, “When the audience discovers this, it’s going to feel like two new actors they’ve never seen before.” It’s so fascinating.

And music that you’ve heard a million times, they’re going to feel like they heard for the first time. And that to me was like, “Holy shit. Holy shit, we got something here.”

CD: There was a clip of Cynthia’s audition going around. I’m just curious, did she bring the plastic broom and the blanket-cape herself or was that provided to her?

JC: Oh, my gosh. I was going to send her a screen grab of it and be like, “It started with a 99 Cent Store broom.” But that broom was in there. I had been using it a little bit. But the blanket I think was, or the jacket, or blanket was hers. I think she came in with that. And it was on the side, but I think it’s like a jacket or something she just put over. So, yeah.

CD: An actor prepares.

JC: An actor prepares.

CD: Now, much has been said about Cynthia and Ariana’s insistence on singing live on set, and it’s been one of the most focused points of praise of the film. What was that like and did it present any unique challenges that you had to overcome?

JC:  Yeah, a lot of unique challenges. When you’re doing it live, there’s an actual technical challenge of every set you have has to be silent now, dead silent, not just movie-ready, but has to have soundproofing. And so it takes longer to set shots up. And you can’t be setting up another shot across the way. So Simon Hayes, our mixer, was amazing. And he made sure of it. 

And then the actors themselves, we had a pianist every day no matter what, because we knew we wanted the option to go live anytime we wanted. So the pianist was all set up. But that is a set-up thing and they have to have the earwigs. And having an earwig can also change performance because if you just have this thing, and I forget how, there’s some that are molded and some that are general. And I remember Cynthia liked a certain earwig and Ari liked a certain earwig, and then sometimes they would just be like, “No, I need the other one.” You just didn’t know what they needed on those days. And then when they would do it, though, it made a huge difference because they didn’t have to stick to a tempo. They could ease in. They could just let the song emerge. And that’s very powerful when you’re performing in a scene that is emotionally driven and that the emotion can happen at any moment in the shot. And so, it allowed us to just do that.

And sometimes we had to work with some technical things like, “Okay, once she starts, how does she know what key she’s in?” Well, they all knew, so that wasn’t a huge problem, but usually that’s an issue. They had no issues with that. But then it was like, “Okay, well then how does the piano come in without disrupting their flow? And then at what point do they need to get into the tempo? And is the piano, should the piano help them drive into that tempo, or do they want to lead it, and at what point?” So there was some back and forth about when those things are happening.

And then also in the edit, once you have it in, how you mix those things as cleanly as possible, so you get everything you want. There’s a problem with birds and stuff that were singing whenever Cynthia sang in our stages, but that’s other things that are going on.

CD: So Elphaba is a Disney Princess, is what you’re saying.

JC: Yeah, basically, she had sung to the birds.

CD: I want to just ask a really nitty-gritty question here about some lyric changes. All the songs are pretty intact, there’s very little changes, slight discrepancies here and there. One of the biggest ones that’s getting a lot of attention is at the end of “Defying Gravity,” normally the crowd says, “Look at her, she’s wicked, get her.” In the movie that’s changed to, “Kill her,” which is a small change, it’s just one word, but it actually affects quite a lot of the energy of the film. Can you tell me what led to changing the lyrics so dramatically?

JC: I don’t remember the exact conversation other than that was the destination. That was the ultimate destination for it. It wasn’t just a, “Get her.” So I don’t remember exactly who or when that happened, but that was something that formed over time.

CD: Yeah, it really took me aback, in the best way.

JC: When you think of the heightened stakes of it, that is the actual stakes. So, yeah. I think sometimes we had to really establish where we’re headed, especially in movie two, so that it never felt like half done in it.

CD: Definitely. Now, Wicked has always been a political allegory, and your adaptation doesn’t shy away from that at all. Obviously, there’s been some upsetting political developments here in America. I’m wondering what you hope audiences can take from your film that can help possibly guide them through potentially turbulent times?

JC: I think Wizard of Oz and Wicked were all written in reaction to turbulent times, to transition times, to moments that challenge a generation to stand up, or to act, and to define who we are, and who we will become. And so I think that subversive nature of this story has always been there. And when we took it on, it was right after COVID and we felt it, even then, that, “Who are we becoming?” And it’s the reveal of the storyteller when suddenly you’re like, “Wait, wait, wait. Who’s telling the story? And who do they say is a hero? And who do they say is a villain? And this road, is it ours? Was it ever made for us?”

And so I hope that this movie, in a weird way, it’s an expression of this moment. It’s a mirror to what it may feel like when the truth is revealed to us. Who do we become? And in this delightful, flowery way of the world that we’re swept into, it gets to, it itches at truth. And each character has to ask a real question. We call it “Pleasantville.” At some point, everybody has to wake up. Whether that’s Fiyero in the forest, or even Boq at the end when he’s abandoned, like everybody, and Glinda of course, and Cynthia of course, when they realize the truth, and each person will deal with the truth in different ways. And some have a journey to go, still.

And so I hope that when we look at this movie that people feel, and everyone wants to be Elphaba, everybody hopes that we’re Elphaba. But we may be all a little Glinda. We all may not be quite ready to pop our own bubbles because we can live in our little bubbles, and click on the buttons, and get our food, and get our deliveries. But are we ready to see other people and how we’re made? I hope this gives people encouragement that it’s a tough road, but get used to it because that’s where greatness comes from. That’s where you define who you are. And movie two will get even deeper into that. But I hope it also gives people the sense that when it feels like the end, or it feels like it’s like we’re just beginning, she says, “Oh look, it’s tomorrow.” You get tomorrow to start.

CD: Definitely. I haven’t heard it expressed any better than that. Before I let you go, you mentioned Part II, I have to ask about it, of course. I know Stephen Schwartz confirmed that two new songs are being written for Part II. Is there any possible info you can share about that? Who’s singing them? What do they do for the plot?

JC: That’s about as much as we can give. 

CD: I thought so.

JC: Yeah. But I will say that movie two, now that I know people are invested in this relationship, we go deeper, and harder, and it’s a wild ride, number two, it’s a wild ride. And especially in the new world that we live in, oh yeah, get ready.

CD: Oh, boy. Yeah. Already counting down for a year from now. Can’t wait.

JC: Me, too.

CD: All right, Jon, thank you so much for talking with me today. I’m excited to see Wicked a third, fourth, fifth time, and I’m sure others are, as well.

JC: Great. Perfect. See it in 3D. See it in ScreenX, it’s a whole new experience.

CD: Absolutely. Thanks, Jon.

Wicked is currently in theaters worldwide from Universal Pictures.