Interview: ‘Sebastian’ Director Mikko Mäkelä and Star Ruaridh Mollica Reflect on Telling Queer Stories with Authenticity
In Mikko Mäkelä’s second feature film, Sebastian, a queer 25-year-old aspiring writer named Max living in London begins a double life as a sex worker in order to research his debut novel. While we’ve seen stories of sex work before, they’re often presented as tales of desperation and degradation, a last resort that finds its subject – and our impression of them – in a state of abject pity. Mäkelä takes a different approach, giving Max not trauma but agency.
As played by spectacular star on the rise Ruaridh Mollica, the up and comer is in virtually every frame of the film, in an open, vulnerable and delicately layered performance as he navigates and code switches between Max and the titular Sebastian, his ‘Dreamy Guys’ escort nom de plume. It’s the kind of performance that gets an actor on everyone’s radar, and fast. He’s already got multiple projects in the can, including a role in the upcoming HBO series The Franchise, from Armando Iannucci and Sam Mendes, and it’s only going to go up from there.
Setting the action of Sebastian in world of journalism, specifically the ever-changing and precarious freelance gig economy, also lets the story be an introspective look at writing itself. Queer author Bret Easton Ellis factors heavily into the film, both as an early inspiration for Mäkelä and an initial focus for Max, who is tasked with interviewing him. Here Mäkelä plays with the ongoing conversation swirling in the world of creation about who gets to tell stories about who, an arena the three of us dive into with vigor as Mollica talks about how playing Max revealed his own queerness in ways he didn’t previously acknowledge.
In our conversation we talk frankly about issues of agency, sexuality and what inspires them to create and more, and a bit about what we’re listening to at the moment (it’s a brat summer, of course).
Erik Anderson: I love the film. I saw it at Sundance, and then I just rewatched it again last night and I’m really happy to be able to talk to both of you about it.
Ruaridh Mollica: Ditto.
EA: Mikko, I think it would be really easy to make a film about sex work and have it be kind of lurid or an act of desperation, and I think you really turn it on its head. Not only making Max sympathetic, but really empowering him and giving him agency. Can you tell me a little bit about also the choice to place the action in the world of journalism and creating Max and his alter ego, Sebastian?
Mikko Mäkelä: Yeah, absolutely. I really wanted to make a film that just approaches sex work in a much more positive way, in a sex positive way, and didn’t see didn’t presuppose the character had to be doing it as a consequence of trauma or that it was this last resort. But rather I wanted to make a film that really viewed sex work as it could be a positive choice and a valid choice for someone. But then related to that, really the decision to make him also a journalist as well. Living in London in 2024, it really feels like sex work has, amongst the gay community particularly, become almost like another option in the gig economy of the city. And there are so many young people, students and recent graduates and creative people who are involved in some capacity. And I really wanted to look at that, just to look at Max’s life through the various lenses of all the different kind of jobs that he’s doing, and also consider whether those should be viewed as incompatible for any reason from society’s perspective. And then why should that be?
EA: When you were looking to cast the role, what did you see in Ruaridh and how, if at all, did the character change once he was cast?
MM: Max wasn’t Scottish originally in the script (Mikko and Ruaridh laugh), but we decided to make that change because I think it really fit. It added another layer still of him being a little bit of an outsider coming to London and kind of fed more into still that sense of alienation. In Ruaridh, well, I was first of all really looking for someone who wasn’t new to the audience and really a fresh discovery. And on that first tape that I saw of Ruaridh, he just kind really jumped out of the screen with this real intensity and that sort of courage in his performance that I knew that I needed for him to really kind jump into this character. But then beyond that, I think what would really set himself apart from everyone else was also just the position that he has when acting, because so much of the film is also quiet moments of just being with Max and being able to bring those to life almost like a silent movie actor in that sense. So yeah, those were the qualities that really made Ruaridh right for the role.
EA: Ruaridh, what was your initial experience with the script? What made you the most nervous and what made you the most excited to take it on?
RM: So tricky. I mean, obviously the intimate scenes were something you notice so quickly when reading the script, and they were something that I was definitely nervous for, just more because they were new to me. I’d not really done any intimate scenes before. I didn’t really know how it was going to work. And then the idea that, “Okay, well I’m just going to have to be really comfortable in my body, my own skin, and that’ll be something that will probably confront when doing the film and knowing that it’s going to be released and that’ll be eyes on you,” and things like that. And I think that I was nervous for that, but then they ended up becoming the most exciting scenes. They were so much fun and so free and such an interesting dynamic to workshop with another actor. I think I was also just nervous. It’s such a character study and it is very rarely there’s a scene where Max is in the shot. I think genuinely probably just the weight of undertaking the task, and I think we all knew it was going to be really long days and it was going to be really intense. I was definitely nervous for that. But, I mean, you click into it.
EA: Yeah, and you’re right. You are in virtually every scene. There isn’t a B story. You are the story the entire time. I love that. Do you find sometimes playing a character like this makes you ask questions about yourself, or does it possibly answer questions that you already had?
RM: Totally. I mean, I think especially because it’s a character that goes on such a journey of self-acceptance and self-exploration and self-discovery and putting themselves in these moments where they’re forced to confront things that they didn’t even know they maybe had to confront. I think I definitely learned a lot about myself throughout this process, both in terms of stamina and strength in my craft, but also, I came to accept my sexuality more freely and became way more vocal about everything. And I feel more free after this film as well.
EA: I love that. The film has a transcendent arc for Max and that you get to have that as well is kind of amazing.
RM: I know, right? (laughs).
MM: I was going to say, it was such a lovely experience because I think Ruaridh, you weren’t the only one either from the casting crew who said that, that being a part of the film had just allowed people to maybe examine their lives a little bit more and feel freer as well in their sexuality and lighten their choices, which I thought was, yeah, that was such a nice thing to hear.
EA: Very much. Mikko, as we discussed earlier, the sex work is very central to the film. What did you want to make sure to avoid in those scenes and what did you want to make sure that the audience saw and understood about them?
MM: I think more widely through the representation of sex work in the film, I really wanted people to see that a sex worker can take pleasure in it and that they can feel empowered whilst not glamorizing and saying that there aren’t dangers as well and difficult days and any potential for exploitation. But I really wanted to avoid that, I think, quite outdated notions about sex work, having to be… That a sex worker can’t possibly know themselves or they can’t enjoy the work for what it is and that there isn’t value to it. So I think in some of the scenes, I really wanted to show that that Max Sebastian is in the moment and into it as well, and enjoying the sex, whether it’s a slightly narcissistic pleasure of enjoying being objectified or whether it is then later on when he’s kind of moving more into this sense of empathy and also understanding of how much kind of power he wields as well over a client who is really needing to be touched and needing that companionship. So, I really wanted the scenes to feel very much also rooted in Max’s perspective and just kind of go through a variety of responses that he has on his emotional journey there.
EA: And to that point, Ruaridh, as a performer, how did you approach them technically and emotionally?
RM: I think technically most of it was down through our intimacy coordinator. They played such a huge role in curating and bringing life and authenticity and connection into these scenes in a really safe way. And by the time the groundwork with the intimacy coordinator had been laid, you felt so comfortable and close to the other actor that everything else kind of came freely, and then Mikko could come in and bring further notes of emotion and more technical kind of hand placements and the energy and feelings through that. And it ended up, it was a really great, great experience.
EA: I think it would be hard to talk about these scenes without mentioning your co-stars in them. And I think specifically Jonathan Hyde, I think all of your scenes with him have an incredible amount of tenderness, and they echo the conversation that you’re having at that table with the editor in how the younger generation and older generation have to share information on history, on our own history.
RM: Yeah.
EA: I had love to hear you just talk a little bit about working with him and your other co-stars in those moments.
RM: I mean, it was amazing. I mean, every single person brought such thoughts and care and really gave themselves to these scenes. I don’t think there was a moment where I felt any hesitation or fear from anyone. Again, it was a really nice, safe closed set, and intimacy coordinator was wonderful, and I think that really helped. But I mean, especially with Jonathan, he really just wore his heart on his sleeve the whole time. And I think he really relished and enjoyed the experience and really put a lot of work and time into it. And every intimate moment and heartfelt moment with Jonathan felt completely real at the time. It was one of those moments where you get completely lost in the scene and you almost forget we’re filming something. It was amazing.
EA: I can say as a viewer, that’s how it felt as well. It was just very genuine and very heartfelt. Another thematic element of the film, Mikko, which I really love, is the sequence where Max’s editor is talking about having queer writers write about queer authors with the Bret Easton Ellis article. I love how it speaks to what representation actually means in this era. It’s a much longer and broader conversation than I think that we can have here. But I would really love to hear each of your thoughts about it in the context of this film. And maybe, if you want, expand on what it means to each of you just in the craft in general.
MM: As a queer filmmaker thus far, I find myself having made queer films pretty much exclusively. And there is something just… I’m definitely an advocate for the use of imagination and empathy, and we can’t just limit ourselves to solipsistic stories about just ourselves, because otherwise we’ll just end up making documentaries about ourselves, if that’s the only subject that we’re allowed to write about. And of course, in many ways the film is sort of designed to ask these questions as well of is an audience’s enjoyment of a piece of art increased or lessened as well by the knowledge that its maker has personal experience about something or not? I like to leave it as up for discussion in that sense in the film. But it’s also the same question that we then, also as a director, I go through with every project when thinking about casting as well. It feeds into that so much whether these roles have to be played by queer actors or not. And the question, again, I don’t think there is a clear-cut answer. There are so many, also other qualities I suppose that people can bring into the roles that sometimes outweigh that. But all of that said, there’s such a imbalance of representation that we are still working on redressing that I think is really important to keep it in mind the whole time. Authenticity for sure, when crafting stories.
EA: I agree.
RM: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with Mikko. I do think there are definitely some stories that should only be told by those who have lived them or experienced them, especially when it comes to casting trans actors and trans roles and things. But I do think for certain other things, imagination is okay as long as you know where the boundaries of that are. And I definitely believe if you can cast queer, you should cast queer. And if you can cast work in class, I think you should definitely cast work in class again because of these minorities in the industry. But a lot of the time, I do think if it’s a queer filmmaker making a queer film, to me, it’s more important that their story is being told and that they get to do that. If there is someone else who is perfect for telling their story and they’re an ally, then there.
EA: The whole journalism and editor element of this spoke so loudly to me. Because this is what I do every day. (laughs)
Mikko: Yeah. (laughs)
EA: I assign projects every single day, and with my other editors, we have these conversations about who should do it and why they should do it. And I think the key is that it’s not, it isn’t black and white. It isn’t always one or always the other. There is a balance there.
RM:Yeah, absolutely.
MM: I suppose to keep up. But yeah, the important thing is to make sure that there is an authentic voice in the mix all the time and as part of the project, otherwise you’re lost.
EA: Absolutely. What inspires each of you when approaching your individual crafts and then also in your life? Is it films, music, people? What’s your motivation and main inspiration?
RM: I feel like my answer is probably maybe shorter. I don’t know. I think in terms of when I’m approaching a project, what inspires me is finding the mind of the character and learning what Mikko read and watched when he was writing the film and diving into all these different avenues of literature and film and finding the root behind it and getting quite studious around it all. That really gets me going, I think, I don’t know, because I have a computer science background and I think I kind of enjoy nerding out on stuff. So I think that definitely, there’s an element of that. And then creatively, it’s just, I mean, anytime you watch an incredible film or an incredible performance, you’re just like, “How did they do that?” And I think that drives you because maybe one day you’ll figure out how they did that. Maybe you never will. And I think that’s really exciting.
MM: Yeah, it’s difficult. Yeah. Big question. I think it’s just observing the world around me and noticing things, observing people, noticing people, imagining sometimes what their stories might be. And then of course, certainly watching other films as well, that can be really inspiring and aspirational and might spark off some ideas. But yeah, I think it’s about things that you hear about, read about, that might spark ideas for stories and human beings.
EA: And to close, we’ll just take a little bit of a left turn and maybe something a little more fun. I want to know what you guys are listening to right now. What are your songs of the summer and what’s totally got you going?
RM: I mean, obviously it’s brat summer.
EA: Absolutely!
RM: Weirdly, a lot of country has slipped back in a lot of old Johnny Cash stuff I’ve been listening to, especially one song called “Jackson.” It’s like Johnny Cash and his wife June Carter.
EA: Love that.
RM: I went through a big Duke Ellington phase as well, which has been fun. And that’s probably why I’m chilling. White and pink noise to go to sleep.
EA: I love it. Mikko, what are you listening to? What’s your vibe?
MM: I have to say it’s been brat summer the last few weeks.
EA: Solid, I love it.
MM: And some Chappell Roan as well.
RM: Oh yeah.
EA: A hundred percent. We are united. Boys, thank you so much for your time with me today. I really appreciate it and I love talking to you about this film.
MM: Thank you.
RM: Thank you. It’s been so lovely. Happy brat summer.
Sebastian opens in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco from Kino Lorber on August 2 before expanding to select cities nationwide.
He is a Rotten Tomatoes-approved critic, accredited by the Cannes Film Festival, Telluride Film Festival, Toronto International Film Festival and more, is a member of the International Cinephile Society (ICS), The Society of LGBTQ Entertainment Critics (GALECA), Hollywood Critics Association (HCA) and the International Press Academy. Among his many achieved goals with AwardsWatch, he has given a platform to underrepresented writers and critics and supplied them with access to film festivals and the industry and calls the Bay Area his home where he lives with his husband and son.
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