Interview: ‘The Substance’ Special Makeup Effects Designer Pierre-Olivier Persin on Transforming Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley into a Funhouse of Horror and Using 4,000 Gallons of Blood

I joke at the start of my interview with special makeup effects designer Pierre-Olivier Persin that he is, in a way, the true star of The Substance, given how large a role the makeup and prosthetics play in bringing the audience into the world of Coralie Fargeat’s masterpiece of body horror. Persin replied that he wasn’t sure about that, but the more he spoke, it became clear that he was being modest. In addition to fully designing each stage of Demi Moore’s physical breakdown as Elisabeth Sparkle, the Hollywood icon who takes a black market drug to birth a younger, more beautiful, more “perfect” version of herself with disastrous consequences, Persin and his team also built numerous puppets that they then had to animate themselves. “I built lots of puppets – sophisticated puppets, but puppets.” For instance, while the visual effects team put Moore’s face on the “blob” that marks the final stage of Elisabeth’s transformation in the film, the actual piece is a puppet, as is the back that births Elisabeth’s alter ego, Sue (Margaret Qualley).

“For all the twisting and the weird stuff under the back, opening, splitting in half, we used two different dummies,” Persin says. In order to properly work the dummies, the set had to be raised so that Persin and his crew could hide under it to animate the puppets. “That was cool because Coralie was under the set or just very close to us, and she was able to direct us,” he says, giving credence to my opening statement. When I double down, he laughs and concedes, “In a very weird way! I don’t have her [Moore’s] talent, but that was really fun.” Persin also hid in the Monstro Elisasue costume to accomplish one of the film’s most memorable moments. “It’s very tiring after 10 or 15 takes. Your arm above your head like that, trying to animate and move and push that boob… my arm was numb at the end of the day.”

Persin’s work in the French film industry prepared him well for his work on The Substance, even though it’s much more extreme than the films he’s used to working on. “With French movies, I’m used to work[ing] on a very realistic movie… I’m kidding, but a drama in a kitchen, and someone aging, and with a very cruel light. It is not at all a horror movie kind of light, it’s very realistic and everything, and you really need to respect the performance of the actors and all that.” Part of what makes the makeup effects in The Substance so squishily believable and unsettling is that he approached his work on it in the exact same way that he does the more realistic films he’s worked on. “I approached it as if I was working on a very realistic movie. And when you see the lightning, for instance, in the bathroom… it’s very harsh and it’s impossible to hide anything. And so it was really helpful to have that approach.” The main difference, according to Persin, was Fargeat herself, who prioritized practical effects and always pushed for more. “Coralie wasn’t afraid of anything… anything, it’s like, ‘Go for it, don’t be shy!’” Even while filming the climactic, bloody New Year’s Eve show, which in Persin’s recollection used about 25,000 liters of fake blood, Fargeat never worried about it being too much. “I guess the discussion was, ‘it’s not enough,’” he laughs. “It’s never enough!”

Read on to learn more about Fargeat’s vision, how Persin achieved it, and what surprising film one of his earliest test runs reminded him of.

Dan Bayer: All right, so here we are at AwardsWatch, and we are speaking with Pierre-Olivier Persin, the special makeup effects designer and supervisor for The Substance. And because of that, the film’s true star, if I may say so. [laughs]

Pierre-Olivier Persin: I’m not sure about that, but… [laughs]

DB: The makeup – specifically, the special effects and prosthetics in this movie – are so incredible and so impactful to the story that the film is telling, and it really is so much of what I know people are talking about with this movie. So, I’m very excited to talk to you about your work on it.

And my first question is, how much description of what these pieces were supposed to look like was actually in Coralie’s screenplay versus how much you had to get from her in terms of speaking about it or working on it?

PP: That’s a good question. It wasn’t really described. Some of it was really clear, for instance, Elisabeth, Demi Moore’s face on the Monstro’s back, you know the screaming face on the back?

DB: Yeah.

PP: It was written – it was in the script, but mostly, Coralie had a very clear vision in her mind. But we had to, and I had to try to understand and visualize what she had in mind, because it was clear in her mind but it wasn’t clear from a visual point of view as a makeup effects thing. It wasn’t clear as a movie, obviously, but very clear in her mind.

So the design phase was really important and quite long, depending on the characters. But yeah, the script was really descriptive. It has lots of … Even some weird noises were written like “SPLOSH” or “AAAGH”. All of that was written, so it was a different kind of script to read.

DB: I love that! Oh, that’s great. I know that Coralie has said that she wanted to do as much as possible practically and without the aid of computer visual effects. So how did you determine where the special makeup effects job ends and CGI-enhanced visual effects begin?

PP: Basically, in the movie, the visual effects were used really to animate Demi’s face – Elisabeth’s face – on the Monstro’s back, and for the blood. That was really where they were used because honestly thinking… Oh yeah, and obviously, when we needed to erase, for when we were at the end with all the blood coming out of the arm and everything, we had some green elements that we needed to remove.

But really, it was… what Coralie wanted as a performance from Demi, it was impossible to get that kind of subtlety with a puppet or realistic head. It was really a performance. We really needed to shoot Demi and use really cool visual effects, and I think it’s really cool because you cannot see… it blends beautifully with the practical effects. But apart from that, and some green elements and everything they’ve done on Demi’s face, mostly on the blob, it’s practical.

DB: It all looks incredible and so real, which is part of what makes the film even more painful to watch at points.

PP: Yeah, that’s why I guess Coralie wanted to use a practical effect as much as possible to get that painful flesh quality.

DB: Yeah, absolutely. What was the first piece that you worked on for this, and how long did it take to make everything?

PP: I worked 11 months on the show for prep and shooting, and we were building stuff, making stuff while we were shooting, obviously, also. So it was quite a long journey.

We started really with maquettes [a scale model or rough draft of an unfinished sculpture or work of architecture]. So even for the birth and the back being all twisted and splitting open and all that, we built small silicone maquettes just like that [indicates his forearm length]. And that, I was able to animate to show Coralie what I had in mind from a technical point of view, and [see] if she was okay with that, the direction and everything. So we did lots of hand-sculpted maquettes or digital sculpting or Photoshop, a mix of everything.

So we started really with that, and I think the very first thing we started working on was the birth effects, all the fake back and the big back prosthetics and everything. Why? Because we didn’t have the actresses at that time when we started very early on. We didn’t have any life cast or scan, so we were able at least to start working on one important scene.

DB: And that was actually going to be one of my questions was about that look specifically after the birth, that stitched-up back of hers. Was that actually a piece that you put on Demi, or was it a whole other separate thing?

PP: Actually, it was both. For all the twisting and the weird stuff under the back, opening, splitting in half, we used two different dummies. [There was a] fake back, we had to raise the sets with my crew, we were under the set and we were animating a big puppet to really get a performance. And that was cool because Coralie was under the set or just very close to us, and she was able to direct us – quicker, slowly, dah-dah-dah, from left to, and it was like… 

DB: This is what I said: The true star of this movie. You guys were acting just as much as Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley were. [laughter]

PP: In a very weird way! I don’t have her talent, but that was really fun. And so, we did that because obviously we couldn’t do that on a real human being. And then also, we did big prosthetics, appliances that we glued onto a photo double laying on the ground, and that’s what was used for all the stitching and everything. And then we used smaller appliances for all the scars and all that. So all the birth and scars and stitching up and everything, even though I know it’s a few minutes only in the movie, it was lots of work and very important.

DB: Yeah, yeah. Obviously, yes. Even with stuff like that, how do you draw the line between finding that balance between what you want out of the look of a makeup and the practicality of having the performers be able to move?

PP: Good question, especially for the age makeups and the stuff that are in the movie on Demi … Well, I guess with French movies, I’m used to work[ing] on a very realistic movie, an auteur film like a drama – I’m kidding, but a drama in a kitchen, and someone aging, and with a very cruel light. It is not at all a horror movie kind of light, it’s very realistic and everything, and you really need to respect the performance of the actors and all that. So I’m used to that, and so my approach was the same as if I was working… I’m not only working on auteur movies, but I still do from time to time. And I love doing that. But my approach was the same. I approached it as if I was working on a very realistic movie. And when you see the lightning for instance, in the bathroom, the lightning is all white eyes, and it’s like a surgery room or whatever.

DB: It’s very harsh lighting, yeah.

PP: Yeah, yeah, it’s very harsh and it’s impossible to hide anything. And so it was really helpful to have that approach. But Coralie wasn’t afraid of anything. That’s the second thing I have to say – anything, it’s like, “Go for it, don’t be shy.”

DB: Oh, yes. So in terms of the prosthetic work, did that include stuff like Elisabeth’s aged finger and leg, or were those more just painting on her?

PP: No, no, no, no, the finger was prosthetic. And to me it was really important because it was the first element, and if that first element wasn’t working, the rest wouldn’t follow. So at first, I did a test for the finger at the workshop, just for me. I think it really looked goofy, and it wasn’t working. It was too big, it was like E.T. It just wasn’t working. So I said, okay, let’s start again, but also, let’s start again for some of the other effects, because to me… I don’t know, it’s like if you play music, if the first note is not right, maybe the notes that follow will sound weird also.

So yeah, we did that. And for the leg, for instance, for the very aged leg, we had prosthetics. We used prosthetics, but for all the tight close-ups and everything, we built fake legs that we shot on the floor of the shower, when she’s sitting in the chair and the kneecap is stuck, and all that. So we were able to really remove and take off and really have a twisted, small, shrunken leg. And yeah, I had fun with that.

DB: That’s very cool. The same question for the Gollum Elisabeth look, how much of that was prosthetics versus directly painted on her?

PP: Everything was prosthetics. She was covered from head to toe.

DB: It’s really incredible that all of these things were the whole body you had to create.

PP: Yeah, that was really cool. I really, really like that character, and I wanted it to be all silicon for the translucence. And that was a good thing because of the harsh lightning in the bathroom. And also, we incorporated veins, but inside the silicon it was like red wool or blue wool that we were putting inside really before the paint and everything. So things were showing through the skin because silicon is translucent, which offers that really cool, old skin quality. So, yeah, she was completely covered.

Also, we had a stunt double. We used a very, very thin stunt double with no breasts and very thin legs and arms and all that. So, when you do prosthetics, you are building up, obviously, because you are adding volume [with] appliances. So, if you have someone very, very thin, you can just build up some areas, but keep other areas really… to have that spider almost quality on it.

DB: Yeah, it’s an incredible look. And I will say that when I was watching the movie, I said, “Oh my gosh, she looks like Gollum,” and then seeing in the credits that that was what you guys called that version, that was very cool.

PP: Yeah, that one, when I say, “Oh, you know, the Gollum character?” Everybody’s like, “Oh yeah, I know, I know the one you’re talking about.”

DB: Exactly, yeah. So moving on to Monstro Elisasue, which is just the big makeup piece for this movie. I had read you say in an interview that the full suit was actually foam latex, which… how did that work with all the blood? Because that absorbs everything, doesn’t it?

PP: That’s true, that’s true. We had a suit for Margaret Qualley, and we had a suit for the stunt double. All the blood stuff and everything was done using the stunt double. Special effects built a very, very powerful blood rig, the one you see in the movie… it was even more powerful than what you see in the movie.

DB: Oh, wow.

PP: And most of the audience in the theater, in the movie were stunt doubles, because it was quite dangerous to be sprayed. So the device was really powerful. And under the blue dress… they built a rig on wheels because it helped to carry the weight and everything. But the first time they switched on the blood and everything because of the wheels and everything, she was pushed backward very violently. It was okay! That was something, but yeah, because we had one suit, really, we had to cut the suit for technical reasons, and we had to stitch it back and glue it back. And we were spraying waterproof spray to try to avoid that sponge quality of the foam latex. And it was turning pink, so we were trying to repaint it and drying it all night. And then putting that half-dry, half-wet thing back on the next morning, that was fun for us, and maybe not that much fun for the stunt double. [laughs]

DB: I can imagine. Do you know how much fake blood you actually used for the finale?

PP: I think it was like 25,000 liters. I don’t know in gallons, but 25,000 liters, maybe 4,000 gallons, maybe more than that. I don’t know. A lot.

DB: A whole lot. Was there ever a discussion of how much was too much as regards to the blood specifically, but also all the makeup just in general?

PP: No, I guess the discussion was, “it’s not enough.” [laughs]

DB: [laughs] It’s never enough!

PP: It’s never enough. No, no, no, Coralie wasn’t afraid of anything.

DB: You can see that watching the movie, it’s completely fearless. I know we’re approaching the end of our time together, and I wanted to make sure to ask, because I had seen you say in another interview that original designs for Monstro Elisasue were very masculine, and that Coralie wanted something softer, more feminine. So I’m curious, what did you mean by masculine? What did the original designs for that look like and how did it change?

PP: Yeah. Well, when I read the script and Coralie came to me with the executive producer, they asked another company to do some designs. It was a very talented company, but Coralie was unhappy with the designs. And I saw them, and they were really good from an artistic point of view, but the sensibility was really masculine, obviously. Like, it was a guy drawing a monster, and it wasn’t what Coralie had in mind. So I took the bid and I was working on another show, and at night I sculpted. Over a few nights, I sculpted small maquettes, and even though… it’s not completely the final [version], it has been refined a lot. But when she saw it, she was like, “Oh, I really like the direction.” She already had all the boobs and the arm facing back and all that, the head like that [tilts head sideways]. And she’s like, “I really like the direction.” After that, we worked a lot for a month to redesign it. But she said, “I like the direction. I’m giving you the show,” basically. So that was it.

And I would like to add also, that on Monstro, because for many… we had time issues and everything, it took us months. We started doing all the calls and life casting and all that for Monstro. I designed her, but when it was time to build her, we were so late on everything, I subcontracted the build of the suit to a UK company, Dave and Lou Elsie, and then we took her after that and we took over. But Dave and Lou built the suits, and I think it’s important. That has not been said enough, so I want to say it. And they’ve done a great job, and I’m happy they jumped in because we had so many things to do. Then we did all the boob popping out of the [gestures], you know. That was a puppet, that was my hand, all that stuff. But yeah, there was Dave and Lou helping us a lot, and they need to be thanked.

DB: I was going to ask about that, the boob birth. So that was actually you pushing it out?

PP: Yeah. I did that.

DB: That’s very, very cool.

PP: Yeah. Again, it was like the birth and everything, I built lots of puppets – sophisticated puppets, but puppets. And so I was able to really move the head and push and Coralie could say to me, “Faster!” or whatever. And it’s very tiring, after 10 or 15 takes. Your arm above your head like that, trying to animate and move and push that boob. [laughs] I couldn’t… my arm was numb at the end of the day.

DB: I can imagine, yeah. That’s just about all the time we have, and I wanted to thank you so much. But I also wanted to point out that you actually did do that final crawling face of Elisabeth as well. That’s not visual effects. That was one of your prosthetics, correct?

PP: We made a puppet. We designed it, we built a puppet, [and] we animated the blob puppet.

DB: It’s so good, the blob.

PP: There are lots of VFX on that one to animate Demi’s face. But Coralie really wanted VFX to really reproduce what we had done with the puppet. So it’s exactly our puppet, but with very cool visual effects on top of it. So there’s lots of digital wizardry on that one.

DB: The combination of digital and practical, like I said, it’s the most memorable, squishy, icky, fantastic piece of makeup design I’ve seen in a long time. So thank you so much for your work on it, and thank you for speaking with us today.

PP: That was my pleasure. Thank you so much.

The Substance is currently in theaters from MUBI, streaming via MUBI and also available VOD.

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Daniel Bayer

Daniel Bayer has been in love with movies all his life, in love with the theater since he could sit still, and in love with tap dance since seeing Singin' in the Rain at nine years old. A nationally-ranked dancer in his teens, his theater credits are many and varied, both behind and on the stage. He now spends his days as a non-profit database manager and the rest of his time seeing, writing about, and talking about movies and theater. He is a proud member of GALECA: The Society of LGBTQ Entertainment Critics. You can find him on the AwardsWatch and Next Best Picture podcasts, and on Twitter @dancindanonfilm.

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