Victor/Victorious: How Eva Victor Challenged Trauma Tropes to Create Beauty in ‘Sorry, Baby’ [Interview]
It’s a rather sublime morning in San Francisco, a crisp, clear blue sky looking over the bay as I walk down the Embarcadero to the hotel for my conversation with Eva Victor, the writer, star and first time director of the new feature film and one of the best films of the year, Sorry, Baby.
It’s a bit of a coming home for Victor, who uses they/she pronouns, born in Paris but having spent their youth in San Francisco, attending an “intensely disciplined” French-speaking school in Hayes Valley and, as a part of the San Francisco Girls Chorus, would attend the 7th Day Adventist summer camp in Healdsburg in Sonoma County’s wine country for 10 years, culminating in performing at Obama’s 2009 inauguration. As a Healdsburg native myself, we bonded over our mutual connection (“Wait, so what do you do up there? Do you have a vineyard?”). We joke that it’s July 1 so time for straight pride (if you know their Twitter sketch days, you know) as we sit in a rather large boardroom that looks like someone is about get a promotion or get fired. Victor’s adventures took them briefly to Berkeley (“Just to sort of enjoy my time there”) then to Northwestern University in Illinois to study playwriting and acting before heading to New York City to fully explore performing and comedy and anything and everything in between. In the process they developed a large social media following with their comedy, making videos for Comedy Central about everything from anxiety to straight pride (see above).
They spent three seasons and 31 episodes playing tech hedge fund whiz Rian on Billions and when COVID shut down production, Victor headed up to Maine, subletting a friend’s house and started diving deep on a personal story of trauma and growth that, from the outside, seemed like a darker turn compared to their goofy observational comedy. It’s here that Sorry, Baby was born, the story of English lit professor Agnes (Victor), the bad thing that happens to her and a cat. The best cat (well, cats). More on that later. After an impromptu DM from Oscar-winning director Barry Jenkins (Moonlight) over Instagram, a professional relationship was born and he and his partners at Pastel, who backed Charlotte Wells and her Oscar-nominated 2022 film Aftersun, boarded the film. Pastel dispatched Victor into a hand-tailored, year-long filmmaking bootcamp that included reading lists, editing and cinematography tutorials, and mock shoots. Victor even shadowed writer-director Jane Schoenbrun throughout the production of I Saw the TV Glow.
“These different steps began to build up my confidence, and shadowing Jane was an incredible education unto itself,” says Victor. “Their film was so completely different from mine, but through that experience, I began to absorb what a set feels like for a director, the pressures and pleasures they can encounter, what it means to fight for what you need, and when to accept that compromise is good for everyone.”
With inspired casting and nuanced performances from Naomi Ackie, Lucas Hedges and John Carroll Lynch, Victor debuted the film at the Sundance Film Festival earlier this year, winning the Waldo Salt Screenwriting Award (previous winners include Jesse Eisenberg for A Real Pain and Christopher Nolan for Memento). Soon after, A24 picked up the film and brought to the Cannes Film Festival, where it played in the Directors Fortnight section.
In our conversation, Victor and I talk about everything from casting her human and feline co-stars, the humor embedded in the film, how Victor balances real life and fictional life with Sorry, Baby and how their own non-binary status speaks to Agnes.
Sorry, Baby is currently playing in Los Angeles and New York, and expands to San Francisco, Boston, Chicago and more on July 4 with a nationwide release set for July 25.
Erik Anderson: So, my notes are all over the place…
Eva Victor: Perfect. Let’s get into that.
EA: … which is totally the nonlinear style of the film, so.
EV: I love nonlinear as you know.
EA: Okay. Here we go. I want to actually ask you about COVID and that era of creativity and what that did for you in a positive way. I’ve talked to a lot of people whose creativity really kind of exploded during that period because of the-
EV: Constraints.
EA: Yeah.
EVA: I think it was definitely a time of deep fear and confusion, and it was just me alone in my apartment. It was this really dark apartment in Brooklyn with no windows. There was one window, but it was barely there. And I just was really upset and sad and confused. And I think I started watching movies to sort of escape, but then also to feel more and to just feel connected to the world when I felt very disconnected. And I also think there was something about watching movies from a different time that made me feel like, “Okay, life is crazy for everyone at any time.”
I watched the movie Phoenix, which is about World War II and about a woman whose face is completely… She just gets complete facial reconstruction. And then goes out into the world in Germany. It’s crazy. I think just being able to feel different time was helpful. And also, I think when you’re alone in your room, a film is good company because it’s got people in it, and it’s got heart in it. It’s kind of life-affirming when things feel really rough. Ssometimes when you watch a tragedy and you’re feeling sad, it’s very helpful. I remember I went through a really crazy breakup once, and the only films I wanted to watch were horror films because it was the only thing that I felt matched my vibe and also made me remember, “Okay, the thing I went through isn’t the worst thing that someone’s been through because this… Sandra Bullock is doing Bird Box.” So yeah, definitely interesting.
EA: Getting into Sorry, Baby–
EV: Yes.
EA: … which I loved. I saw it at Sundance.
EV: You did? Were you there?
EA: I was not, not in person. I’m not a snow girl.
EV: Me neither. No snow bunny.
EA: I like my California.
EV: You’re Sonoma County.
EA: Yeah.
EV: Yeah. Nothing like it.
EA: Yeah. I won’t apologize for that.
EV: You shouldn’t.
EA: But it really goes deep into how we examine ourselves post trauma. And as we were talking about the non-linear element of the storytelling, did the writing process have a non-linear approach as well?
EV: Definitely, yeah. I think I wrote certain scenes that would eventually find their way, whether directly or indirectly, into the film. But it just… I couldn’t figure out the container for it. I just wrote scenes because I wanted to write them, but I couldn’t figure out how it worked structurally. And unless I understood the structure, I think that helped me then have a container. Each chapter is going to have a piece of a year that feels emblematic of what that year represents. And then once I understood that it felt much more digestible. I understood how to fit things into each section. I think the real thing about a film is like a film could be anything, and then once pieces are… Once limits are put on it’s actually like, “Oh, now I can be creative within the container.” So, once I figured out the structure, then I could write.
And once I figured out that I really wanted to talk about time and reminders of things that only one person can see and trying to heal when it feels like the world doesn’t see anything that you can see. Once I figured that out, it’s like, okay, so then the structure needs to support that idea. So, we don’t see the violence. We prioritize seeing the friendship and this person is stuck and time is moving in a very subjective way. And this other person… And their life is moving as… Their life is completely transforming and they’re coming now with a baby. And showing those two people’s experience of time, I think was helpful too in telling the story I wanted to tell. Not just a story about this topic, but a story about specifics of these years.
EA: Yeah. Yeah. I want to read a quote back to you that you-
EV: Oh God.
Erik Anderson: … said. This is very recent, so I don’t think it’s going to… And with regard to this story… And this is, in the press that you do, and in talking about the film and talking about what its subject is and that there’s a personal connection to it. And I think there’s a natural journalistic nature to pry.
EV: Yeah.
EA: And so, one of your responses to that was, “People ask me questions and it’s like, I promise whatever you want to know. The answer I want to give you is in the film.”
EV: Yeah.
EA: I’ve never heard anything so succinct and kind of beautiful. I kind of want to subvert that and ask, how do you know how much of your life and your experience to share and what to keep for yourself in the press and in the film?
EV: I think in the film I found a lot of joy in the creation of the world. And that… The joy of fictionalizing a world to support Agnes’s journey was very creative for me. I loved that part of it. And I think the nice thing about making a film that’s very personal but is narrative fiction, you get to weave in your truths in ways that ideally feel seamless. And so, no one can tell what’s real and what’s not. And so, I’m protected so I can give more.
I think the truth is the less I say, the more I can actually give because I’m not interesting in this way. You actually don’t, I think, want to know what happened to me. I think people want to feel connected to me, but really the film is the thing that we have in common if you feel connected to the film. And I think I’m far less… It is far less interesting to hear about my lesson than to talk about what she goes through in the film because that is everything I… It’s the most thoughtful way I could ever talk about this topic because I spent so much time on it and worked so hard on creating this person’s journey. I think it really does have all the answers in it that you could ever want from me.
So yeah, I think it’s… I also feel pretty protective because I have in my life had an experience of feeling seen before in a more public way with my videos. There’s a year that felt really intense and I learned a lot about what kind of privacy I’m interested in and how I want my work to speak for me. And so, it’s interesting doing all this press because obviously it’s wonderful to get the chance to invite people to the film. And it’s a bit… It’s skirting around the main thing, which is the film. I mean, it’s not skirting around it, but it just pointing you towards the thing that’s already been made, which is the film. So, it’s interesting, but I’m loving this.
EA: Okay, good. (laughs)
EV: Just so you know.
EA: I was curious about that too because I know you’ve done quite a lot of press recently and-
EV: I do want people to see the film and I know that hearing from me is an amazing… And from trusted journalists, it’s how people find out about the film. So, it’s huge. It’s amazing.
EA: I love that. I think one thing that may surprise people when they hear maybe the log line or not know too much about it is really how funny it is.
EV: Yay.
EA: Because it’s fucking hilarious.
EV: Yay. Thank you.
EA: And maybe people aren’t familiar with your comedy background. How did you want to use levity in moments that didn’t diminish the drama, but kind of?
EV: Yeah, I think I’m looking at the film and learning from the audience, watching it and trying to understand why people are laughing. And I think the main… I have a theory. And I think people… The joy of the friendship between Agnes and Lydie can feel like a sleepover, and that is very fun to be a part of. So, there’s laughter in that joy. And then I think I’m also learning how awkward people think Agnes is, which is very humbling because I didn’t know she was that awkward, but I guess she is. And I think her confronting the world can have awkwardness in it that can be funny.
And then also the film and moments try to point its finger at people doing things in a everyday cruel way. The film sort of heightens and says, “This doctor sucks,” and “These HR women are being cruel because they’re scared, but they’re being cruel.” And being able to laugh at people who are abusing their power in whatever way they are is cathartic. So, I don’t know. There are a couple of jokes in the film, but they’re very much… Hopefully they feel like because of reasons that feel useful to the main point of the film. It’s not humor for humor’s sake, it’s humor to sort of look at something and feel understood by it. And crying and laughing is sort of this release in a way that can be similar sometimes. And I think it’s just one side of the coin.
EA: I mean it’s not set-up punchline jokes. It’s situational and absurdist.
EV: There were a few lines in the script and everyone was like, “Take that out.” There was a line… It was one of the only lines I was told to just cut because at the end Lydie [Naomi Ackie] is like, “I’ll just be 20 minutes at the lighthouse.” And Agnes in the original script was like, “Will she need to feed?” Or something about, “Does she need to breastfeed while you’re gone, like on me?”And I left it in one more time and they was like, “Hey, the line’s still in there and it just feels weird.” And I’m like, “Well, I think it’s funny, but that’s okay.” (laughs) And honestly-
EA: It is actually super funny.
EV: It’s funny right now, but I was actually was thinking like, “Of course she doesn’t. She’s not like an idiot.”
EA: No, it’s just an awkward little, it’s that absurdist humor.
EV: “Will she needs to feed on me,” was the line. (both laugh)
EA: I want to talk about Naomi [Ackie] and Lucas [Hedges] and John Carroll Lynch for a bit.
EV: Yes. Didn’t I get the best people ever? It’s a complete heist.
EA: Oh my God.
EV: I completely pulled off the heist of the century.
EA: I mean, Lucas has not been doing a lot.
EV: He’s very picky. He’s very, very picky.
EA: That’s impressive and cool.
EV: It’s huge. I remember getting the text-
EA: And you get to make fun of his [Gavin’s] dick and-
EV: And he’s (Hedges] wearing shorts. I just feel like everyone doesn’t know how-
EA: How movies work (laughs).
EV: (laughs) And I’m like, “Just don’t worry. Everyone’s in shorts. It’s completely chill.” But yes, I did. And he accepted it. He’s very cool. No, it was amazing. I mean, Naomi is a godsend. She’s the best actress we have, and she could do anything. And I can’t believe she said yes to the film. And she’s just such a loving, warm person and she completely, she made me feel so safe. And I feel like with that safety I was able to make the film I wanted to make because she gave me trust and patience before she had reason to trust me, which is such a gift to give an emerging filmmaker. And you know what? In retrospect, I realize everyone I cast is also a writer and this multi-hyphenate artist. And I think that inevitably there has to be some reason why these felt like aligned people. Like Naomi writes, Lucas writes, John Carroll Lynch directs and Kelly [McCormack] writes, and I think that there’s this ethos of, “I’m going to throw myself into this in this way and I’m an artist and all these…” It’s a very holistic group.
EA: Yeah. And then of course you have Evan and Bebe.
EV: Yes. Evan and Bebe.
EA: Which you know, as a-
EV: The stars of the show.
EA: Honestly, I love John and Lucas and Naomi, but those are my stars.
EV: I agree. I think that it’s so crazy to think about the fact that they are two now.
EA: Oh my gosh.
EV: That’s so weird. We have to just admit they look different.
EA: Yeah.
EV: I do have a picture of them now because can you imagine? The thing about working with a cat and a baby is that they don’t know they’re in a movie. So, there’s a lot of beauty in just that cat really thinks I’m finding him on the road. That’s so intense. And I hold him, and he thinks that… I’m just holding him, and he doesn’t know it’s for a movie and it’s very, very crazy.
EA: I love… And we’ll always have to preface the cat is okay, nothing-
EV: Not even, “The cat is okay.” I’m sick of this language. People keep saying-
EA: Yes.
Eva Victor: … “Nothing bad happens to the cat or no one was harmed making the film.” It’s like, “No, the cat is picked up and then lives at a house. It’s fine.” (laughs)
EA: (laughs) It really, really is.
EV: I know the poster insinuates something, but.
EA: I think it’s just an insinuation that is automatic whenever you see an animal in a film that it’s going to be used to artificially extract a really emotional thing from you.
EV: Right. I would never ever do that. I’m not saying in my life, but I would never do that to this cat.
EA: Yeah. And you have a cat, Clyde.
EV: Yes. Thank you.
EA: Did Clyde ever have any, ‘are you cheating on me?’ ‘Who is this smell?’
EV: No, I think he genuinely would never ever want to be in a film. I tried to put him in this video project I made once, and he seriously didn’t like being in it. And I think he understands he is my muse, and these cats are my actors standing in as my muse for my muse.
EA: I love that. There’s a moment in the courtroom scene where Agnes-
EV: Let’s talk about it.
EA: … marks their own gender on the form.
EV: Let’s fucking go.
EA: And it makes me think, again-
EV: Only queer people want to talk about this! No one else sees it. It’s like a complete check of if someone’s insane.
EA: I know.
EV: If you see that you are queer and if you don’t see that you are homophobic.
EA: It’s really just that simple.
EV: It’s crazy.
EA: Yes. But again, it makes me think of something that you said.
EV: Oh my gosh.
EA: I know.
EV: I know.
EA: But it’s just because kind of a genius. So-
EV: Oh my God.
EA: And it’s about being non-binary. And you said, “It’s a huge gift to give yourself to think you could be more than one thing, that you could be limitless.”
EV: Why do I have chills?
EA: Do you think in that moment that Agnes now feels that she’s limitless?
EV: I think something that happens with this kind of trauma is that we kind of have these rules in the world that that’s your body, you control it. You are a boy. You are a girl. And I think when… Someone coming in and saying, “No, I tell you where your body goes, I’m in charge of your body.” It makes you have to start building your body back from scratch and your mind and body connection from scratch. And when you have to do that, you begin to challenge what rules are serving you and what rules feel completely absurd and fake. And I think Agnes is having experience of, “There’s an F. There’s an M. That’s insane. That’s not what I feel like. I’m going to answer honestly. And mark where I am on this journey right now.” And I think it is a small moment of rebellion against whatever the hell the world has told this person that they have to be. What do you think?
EA: I think it feels like a path that Agnes did not feel was ever going to be a part of her journey. And maybe a way to not distance from the trauma, but to find a way to the next place.
EV: Yeah. I think it’s just honest. I’m proud of her. Well also, there’s a moment at the end where this person comes in. It’s like Lydie’s partner is this amazingly hot non-binary evolved person. And I think Agnes, it’s a mirror moment of that’s who I was supposed to be. That’s who I could have been if this hadn’t derailed. Just seeing this sort of mirror. And that’s why I think there’s tension there is like, “You are me, but better.” Or eventually, maybe they’ll have a heart-to-heart about it, but not in this movie.
EA: Absolutely, I wanted to close on that to have that conversation.
EV: That was a great, I’m glad we talked about that. Thank you so much.
He is a Rotten Tomatoes-approved critic, accredited by the Cannes Film Festival, Telluride Film Festival, Toronto International Film Festival and more, is a member of the International Cinephile Society (ICS), The Society of LGBTQ Entertainment Critics (GALECA), Critics Choice Association (CCA), San Francisco Bay Area Film Critics Circle (SFBAFCC) and the International Press Academy. Among his many achieved goals with AwardsWatch, he has given a platform to underrepresented writers and critics and supplied them with access to film festivals and the industry and calls the Bay Area his home where he lives with his husband and son.
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