Interview: Paul W. Downs on Everything From Why He Does Comedy, the Threat of AI, and What He Hopes the Lasting Legacy of ‘Hacks’ Will Be
“Let’s jump in. Here we go. Gotcha questions.”
It’s the day of the Hacks series finale and I’m talking to co-creator/showrunner/writer/director/star Paul W. Downs in a podcast studio in North Hollywood (Hacks writer and guest star Guy Branam was in another room talking about lube and handjobs but that’s a conversation for another day) and he’s ready for the hard hitting questions of entertainment journalism that I’m ready to throw his way. Ok, it’s mostly about his naked hotel scene this season but still, these are questions the public needs to know the answers to.
The Paul W. Downs path to Hacks, professionally and personally, began nearly two decades ago when he met his now wife and comedy partner Lucia Aniello at the Upright Citizens Brigade which turned into, as many did in the late 2000s and mid 2010s, a YouTube series, Paulilu. Downs’ Zac Efron diaries are alone worth the price of admission.
His big TV break came with a recurring role as fitness instructor Trey Pucker on Comedy Central’s Broad City, where improv classes and UCB came into play once again with Downs also in the writing room for the series. From movies to stand-up shows, Downs was carving out a place for himself that would land him a comedy legacy.
The idea for Hacks, the five-season comedy series about a 70-something comedian and actress (Deborah Vance, played by Jean Smart) at the twilight of her career before she meets young comedy writer Ava Daniels (Hannah Einbinder), came about in a 2019 trip to Paris that Downs and Aniello took with their comedy partner Jen Statsky. With a plan in place for a five season run, the trio worked backwards from the series finale. Navigating COVID shutdowns, dual industry strikes, fires, deaths and births, and more, Downs and company pushed through, creating one of television’s most indelible series’ and winning 12 Primetime Emmys so far, including three himself.
I sat down with Paul W. Downs, the show’s multi-hat wearing creator, writer, director and star, to talk about just that, the legacy of Hacks, both what it is and what he hopes it will be, the show’s commitment to queer representation, AI, the genius of Meg Stalter, and yes, Jimmy’s in flagrante this season.
Erik Anderson: Tell me about 10-year-old Paul. Was he dreaming about writing a comedy series for a woman of a certain age?
Paul W. Downs: Oh wow. That’s such a good question because he was dreaming about doing comedy. I think it was probably 10-year-old Paul probably was already doing characters and sitting at the grownup table at Thanksgiving. I wasn’t at the kids’ table because I wanted to make the grownups laugh. So maybe in a way I was always thinking about people of a certain age. But no, I just wanted to be, I think Robin Williams back then, when I was 10.
I’d seen Mrs. Doubtfire and just did impressions of Robin Williams being funny and finding that other people laughed at that, which is really him. But I was like, “Oh, being funny can get you friends. Comedy can connect you.” So that really was probably around that time. I was like, “It’s better to make people laugh than be made fun of.” Because I was a weird kid. I’m trying to think. It was around that age that I wore patent leather wing tips every day.
EA: Oh my God.
PWD: I was peculiar. I was very peculiar.
EA: I feel that.
PWD: Individualistic. And I was like, “Better to make people laugh and have them laugh at you.” So I was like, “I’ll do that first.” So in a way, yes. I guess the short answer is yes.
EA: It’s a great defense mechanism.
PWD: Totally. Defense mechanism and it’s also a thing that connects you to people. I think if someone laughs at you, they’re disarmed. You know what I mean? It is really like the thing that can bring you together. You know?
EA: Absolutely. I love that. You recently posted about when you went to Paris in 2019 to write the Hacks pilot. And now you’re having this full circle moment about returning there for the finale. What does that mean to you creatively and emotionally?
PWD: It’s so weird because even though we knew that we would… When we pitched the show, we pitched the final episode. So we knew Paris factored into that, but we didn’t know if we would get there or be able to do it. So to be able to do it was so full circle and so bizarre. So it’s so full circle and it was so… What’s the word? It was truly bizarre when we realized we were filming on the same street. We rented that apartment. It was like, I’m getting goosebumps now. It was so weird. And some people might be like, “Well, yeah, it’s the street in Paris.” But it’s not like we were on Fifth Avenue, you know what I mean? It was not like a huge thoroughfare.
We were on a random street and we happened to have written the pilot coincidentally. Because the street, when you find a location and permit it and are able to shoot there, there’s so many factors. It’s not like we were like, “We’re going to shoot on the same street.” The fact that it ended up being the same street with all the streets in Paris was so… It was a little bit like the universe saying, “This is right. The timeline is correct. This is what was meant to happen.”
EA: How do you, Lucia and Jen map out who writes and directs an episode? Is it formal or informal?
PWD: Great question. It’s pretty informal. I think there’s a lot of things that are logistically boring and you’d be like, “Oh, it’s just because you’re doing this block and so you can’t prep the next block,” for instance, for directing, let’s say. When we write, we break all of them together, we break them as a room. And so technically I would say there’s authorship when it comes to the story from all of us and all of our writers and then we go to outline and we, Jen, Lucia and I ,will kind of rewrite the outline a little bit and then someone will go off the script and then we’ll do a pass on the script.
But it’s really very even in terms of what we do. It’s not like one person does this kind of joke and one person does this kind of thing. We are really always sharing the responsibilities, whether that’s in the way in which we’re writing it or producing the show. The only thing that’s like a, I guess a little bit different is that when it comes to directing, I try and direct ones that I’m in the least.
EA: Like “Montecito.”
PWD: Yeah, exactly. I’m like, I just don’t… You know what I mean? It’s like so hard because then it’s like, for me, I want to go back and watch playback. It just is more time-consuming and I feel so safe in the hands of Lucia directing me or this season Jen. It just feels better and easier. And so that’s kind of the only random difference. Everything else is very much all of us, all of us in it together.
EA: That makes sense. That collaborative element makes perfect sense for you guys.
PWD: Mm-hmm.
EA: How much of the bible of the five seasons played out as planned? Were there external factors that required an arc or a storyline change that was substantial?
PWD: Totally. I mean, what’s weird is we just pitched the show again from our pitch script, because we wrote a script that we just read essentially when we pitched the show. And the WGA was having a lot of different shows that were in production show the members what it was like when they pitched it. And so we read that pitch and we were like, ‘Wow, a lot of the names changed.” Because there’s always legal, like there’s someone with that name or “This name’s too close to this famous person” or whatever.
A lot of the names changed, but so much of what we pitched happened, which is really wild. Of course, when they happened in terms of the arc of the series changed and certain characters that may have been smaller. Initially there was like Deborah had our CEO, but then we added Damien as sort of like an assistant character because she didn’t really have an assistant and we wanted to differentiate what Marcus did from like assistant work because he really did run her branding and her whole company. And I think certain storylines obviously expanded, but a lot of it was there, which is really crazy.
EA: That is really crazy.
PWD Yeah.
EA: During the run of the show, you had COVID, double strikes, the fires, Jean’s surgery. How did you keep going?
PWD: It’s like because the show is our baby, it’s like, well, you keep moving on. You keep doing it because it’s such an important thing for us. And I think that’s why some people are always like, “Wow, you guys want to continue to work together? You guys love each other?” It’s like, “Well, yeah, because our egos never were a part of making the show. It was the show and the story was always the most important thing.” As much as it’s a comedy and as I said, comedy I think is the thing that connects people. It did for us. It’s how we found each other, the three of us.
In a way, we thought of it as more than a comedy. I don’t know, because it was a story that we thought was important and Lucia has said this publicly before, but we wanted to tell a story of a person whose story hadn’t been told before. And so I don’t know, that felt like a big responsibility. And so it was like, you can’t let… The show must go on. And that’s so Deborah Vance to get knocked down and get back up. It was like living the embodiment of the show. We all learned from Deborah the more we got to know her.
EA I love that so much. So both Hacks and The Comeback at the same time dealt with AI very head on and the unions fought hard yet we have some A-list creatives that are not only like giving up on its inevitability but even kind of like a part of it. How do you combat that?
PWD: I mean, I think it’s so interesting because so many people do use it and anecdotally just like people that we know, it’s like, “Oh, well, let’s see what ChatGPT says” or whatever. I think what I’m proudest of in doing that episode is saying, “Well, here are all the ways in which it’s bad. Here are all the ways in which the negatives outweigh the positives.” And it’s like, sure, it can organize an invitation list for you or sure, it can show you what your backyard might look like if you put in different bushes.
Sure, I get why people are drawn to that, but I think if you see it in the context of all of the ways in which it’s cutting out huge sectors of the workforce, how it’s changing people’s brains, how it’s taking out, especially in the creative process, the thing that makes the creative process work, which is that friction and that grist, I think all of those things are something that if you’re a casual user, you might not think about. And so for me, it was like, “Well, yeah, I’m hard lined about it. I don’t use it.” Sure, sometimes I could have a thank you note to write and I’m like, “Oh, be easy if someone else wrote it.” And I’m like, “But the important part is that I write it.” Even if it’s not that eloquent, it’s not poetry. Okay. But I’m saying thank you in a way that I thought of. It’s me talking. It’s not somebody else doing it for me. And so I’m proud of us for, I think coming at it from a lot of different angles, but ultimately because even in the ways in which Deborah’s able to defend it, when it comes to her creative process, that is something so sacred that she’s like, “Fuck it. It’s not worth it anyway.”
EA: I love that. I very much want to talk about the incredible number of people of color, queer characters and the actors who play them as an ally. Can you talk about the intentionality of intersectionality in bringing this group of people together?
PWD: Yeah. I mean, part of it is I think hopefully true to life and natural to this character. You know when we pitched the show, it was this character study of Deborah Vance and the people in her orbit and those people often would be people of color and people who are queer, whether it’s her fans or people who work for her or people who just celebrate her, that just felt like what it is and what it would be.
And also again, we live in a place that’s very diverse. We live in a city that has a lot of people of color and queer people and so it’s also true to our experience. And I think whenever we were casting the show it was sort of like any guest star or day player was open to any ethnicity because it’s like, “Well, that is what the world is.”
And it’s like, I think something that we tried to do is make the show feel very real and very real world. Because it makes the stakes of the show so much greater if people feel like the characters are real and if they can see, especially because we do tackle issues in the show, if they can see those issues played out in a really grounded way. I don’t know. It just feels so important. I know it’s a towering oak now to say, if you can see it, you can be it, but it is so important.
EA: I think so and especially for a show that is about the business and the majority of people are not in that business. So it is a great avenue to see yourself in a different way and make the idea of Hollywood and Vegas more accessible.
PWD: Totally. And that’s the thing I think a lot of times the industry’s like, “Oh, we don’t want another industry show because we want people to be able to feel like they get it and they can access it. They don’t want to be too inside baseball.” And I get that because you want people to see themselves in the characters and relate to the show. And for me, these were two people that were always outside of the industry.
They were cast aside and it was about them wanting dignity. So as much as it’s a show biz show, I’m like, well, I think it’s also relatable because everybody knows what it’s like to get looked over or tossed aside or everyone knows what it’s like to want respect from people that are in their peer group. And so hopefully that is the thing that makes it feel like more than just about the industry.
EA: Yeah. And speaking of that, it’s Pride Month. So obviously as Meg would say…
PWD: “Hi Gay!”
EA: What was the crossover between this and when she was cast on the show?
PWD: Meg was cast and I kind of think, and I got to check the timeline on this. I think we had shot before that came out. I kind of think season one had come out.
EA: Wait. Is my brain timeline crazy?
PWD: I don’t know because I think that’s what really made her pop off for so many people online. But no, we had seen her do front facing camera videos on Instagram that a hundred people watched. Because she comes from the alt comedy world, she was at iO in Chicago and then she did like the alt scene in New York. We kind of knew her through that. So we had already cast her when she did that, but I’m glad she did.
EA: There’s also something that needs to be addressed…
PWD: Oh my God. Okay. Let’s get it out. Let’s address it.
EA: …and that is the Broad City level of body-ody-ody-ody that you served this year.
PWD: This is the gotcha. Here we go. Okay. (laughs)
EA: Jimmy often wears things that are a little too small or nothing at all, especially this season.
PWD: Yeah. (laughs)
EA: How much influence did you have to put on [costume designer] Kathleen [Felix-Hager] to make that happen?
PWD: Well, I will say that Kathleen gets these characters better than anybody and so I honestly, everything she has, I’m like, “This is good, this is, this is…” The costumes are hers. As much as yes, the director of the episode will approve costumes and say, “I like this better than this,” that’s all on her, so you’d have to ask her. Now, I did not pitch the scene where we get bedbugs, but in fact, until like the week of us shooting, I was like, I don’t want to feel like that I, as a behind the scenes’ person put this in the show. Should we not do this? But it was just too funny. It was just too funny for these two characters, for Jimmy and Kayla to end up in that same hotel room again and for me to be like, “What happened?” You know what I mean? The situation was too funny not to do it. So even though I did not pitch that, I was more than happy to bring that to life because it was really funny to me for the characters to be in that situation.
EA: It was and we thank you for your service.
PWD: Hey, anything for comedy.
EA: Exactly. Legacy is such an important part of the show, whether it’s Deborah’s lasting legacy or Ava creating her own legacy, what do you hope the legacy of Hacks is?
PWD: I hope it’s a show that as people move through the world and they experience things in their life, they’ll see something or experience something that reminds them of a joke in the show and it will make them laugh again. Because as I said, I think that like it is the thing that gets us through and connects us to people. And so I hope that people always think of the comedy in this show and carry that with them. And I hope that people appreciate what we’ve tried to say about comedy and women in comedy, outsiders in comedy.
And I said this the other night, I do think that because comedy is what helped me find my people, Jen and Lucia, and also like feel connected when I felt like a little bit of an outsider myself, I hope that people, the legacy of the show is that whether it’s the characters in the show or the people that they’ve watched with, whether that’s like, “Oh, I watched it with my husband or my mom. It’s the first show that we’ve shared, “or the community that they’ve found online, I hope that people find their people through the show. And that was said much more eloquently than I did the other night because I couldn’t even get through it. But that was what I meant.
EA: I know. I know.
PWD: That was what I meant the other night. [two nights prior was a Hacks finale screening and panel at the Academy Museum]
EA: That was such a great panel.
PWD: It was a good panel.
EA: I’m thinking of what Robby [Hoffman] said, that in future years someone in a hotel room clicking through and finding, “Oh God, yeah, I want to watch that episode of Hacks from season three.” And that’s the legacy of how I think we do any rewatches of television.
PWD: Yeah, totally.
EA: We think about a moment, a person, and we’re like, “I want to revisit that.”
PWD: Yeah. And I grew up on Nick at Nite, watching old shows that were rerun because they were so good. I want our show to be classic. I want it to be something that people rewatch and are like, it’s like that episode of I Love Lucy. ‘I remember that episode because it has a big impact on my life.’
EA: That’s so lovely. Thank you for your time today, Paul.
PWD: You’re so welcome. Thank you for coming here. This was great.
Paul W. Downs is Emmy-eligible in the categories of Outstanding Comedy Series, Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series and Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series for the series finale of Hacks.
He is a Rotten Tomatoes-approved critic, accredited by the Cannes Film Festival, Telluride Film Festival, Toronto International Film Festival and more, is a member of the International Cinephile Society (ICS), The Society of LGBTQ Entertainment Critics (GALECA), Critics Choice Association (CCA), San Francisco Bay Area Film Critics Circle (SFBAFCC) and the International Press Academy. Among his many achieved goals with AwardsWatch, he has given a platform to underrepresented writers and critics and supplied them with access to film festivals and the industry and calls the Bay Area his home where he lives with his husband and son.
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